Most Active Speakers 2024

Sessionize proudly presents the list of the most active speakers in the year 2024!

  • 1011 speakers
  • Auto-generated
Dhyan Rathore

Dhyan Rathore

Hi, I’m Dhyan. I love all things data, but more importantly, I love making it work for people. Currently serving as an Enablement Lead at a Fortune 500 company, I spend my days navigating the complexities of data at scale.

I help people unlock the magic of Power BI and Fabric by simplifying the tricky stuff and automating the boring parts. My sessions aren't just about theory; I share rigorously tested lessons, tricks, and strategies pulled directly from the field.

I’m a firm believer that data should be a source of inspiration rather than stress. My goal is to deliver practical, engaging, and fun sessions that empower teams to build sustainable solutions with a lasting impact.

Hi, I’m Dhyan. I love all things data, but more importantly, I love making it work for people. Currently serving as an Enablement Lead at a Fortune 500 company, I spend my days navigating the complexities of data at scale. I help people unlock the... Show more

Sara Fennah

Sara Fennah

Sara has over 25 years’ experience, has been a Microsoft Certified Trainer (MCT) for over 15 years and is also a MCT Community Lead and Microsoft MVP (Most Valuable Professional) for Microsoft 365.

Sara has been working with Microsoft 365 since the preview in April 2011 and holds over 50 Microsoft Certifications. Sara’s company still use the same Microsoft 365 Tenant opened back in 2011.

As a trainer Sara’s professional aim is to help make technology more accessible by increasing knowledge and decreasing fear. In her own words “I love helping others advance their own skills and use of technology, whilst challenging myself to advance my own skills and expertise.”

Sara delivers training across Microsoft 365 from beginner to admin level, specialising in productivity, data security, and compliance. She is a recognised expert in Microsoft 365 Copilot, having authored multiple courses and supported organisations with adoption strategies and governance planning.

Sara has over 25 years’ experience, has been a Microsoft Certified Trainer (MCT) for over 15 years and is also a MCT Community Lead and Microsoft MVP (Most Valuable Professional) for Microsoft 365. Sara has been working with Microsoft 365 since th... Show more

Carlos Sanchez

Carlos Sanchez

Carlos Sanchez is a Principal Scientist at Adobe Experience Manager, specializing in software automation, from build tools to Continuous Delivery and Progressive Delivery. Involved in Open Source for over 20 years, he is the author of the Jenkins Kubernetes plugin and a member of the Apache Software Foundation amongst other open source groups, contributing to several projects, such as Kubernetes, Jenkins or Apache Maven.

Carlos Sanchez is a Principal Scientist at Adobe Experience Manager, specializing in software automation, from build tools to Continuous Delivery and Progressive Delivery. Involved in Open Source for over 20 years, he is the author of the Jenkins Kub... Show more

Keren Kenzi

Keren Kenzi

Keren is a senior software developer with over a decade of experience in the industry. She holds an M.Sc. in Computer Science and is passionate about React and learning new technologies. Keren volunteers as a program manager at Baot, a community that supports women in R&D in their professional growth. She instructs and inspires people to write blogs in her tech blogging workshops. Keren has experience as a dev community leader and a co-organizer of meetups and events. And in her not-so-spare time, she studies psychology. Her hobbies include drawing, photography, and singing.

Keren is a senior software developer with over a decade of experience in the industry. She holds an M.Sc. in Computer Science and is passionate about React and learning new technologies. Keren volunteers as a program manager at Baot, a community that... Show more

Riccardo Perico

Riccardo Perico

Back in 2010 I began my career in IT.
After a brief stint as ERP Consultant, I transitioned into Data Realm.

Over the years, I explored the world of data from various perspectives, working both as a DBA and a BI Architect.

I'm a Microsoft Certified Professional at different levels in databases, BI and Azure areas.

Microsoft MVP for Data Platform category x4 and Microsoft Fabric Super User x2.

I'm one of the leaders of Power BI User Group in Italy and I'd been speaker during the Power Platform World Tour and Global Power Platform Bootcamp stops in Italy.

You can find me speaking at Azure Saturday, SQL Saturday, Data Saturday, and other community events across Europe.

I served as a technical reviewer for the books “Extending Power BI with Python and R”, "Microsoft Power BI Quick Start Guide" and “Power BI Cookbook, 3rd Edition”.

Last but not least, Hard Rock and Heavy Metal addicted!

Back in 2010 I began my career in IT. After a brief stint as ERP Consultant, I transitioned into Data Realm. Over the years, I explored the world of data from various perspectives, working both as a DBA and a BI Architect. I'm a Microsoft Cert... Show more

Mihaela Gheorghe-Roman

Mihaela Gheorghe-Roman

Mihaela is an Experienced Software Architect at Systematic, Romania, and an Oracle ACE Associate for Java. Ph.D in artificial neural network algorithms, Assistant Professor at the University of Cybernetics and Informatics in Bucharest, she is a dedicated lead developer and architect who enjoys sharing her knowledge.

In her professional career, spanning over 14+ years, she worked for telecom and defence domains with a focus on Java, Spring Boot, C, C#, Scala and Angular.

Apart from her passion for programming, she loves parrots, she is enthusiastic about traveling the world and doing a lot of sports, from running at marathons, martial arts and to different aerobic trainings.

Mihaela is an Experienced Software Architect at Systematic, Romania, and an Oracle ACE Associate for Java. Ph.D in artificial neural network algorithms, Assistant Professor at the University of Cybernetics and Informatics in Bucharest, she is a dedic... Show more

Leo Visser

Leo Visser

Since 2012 I’ve been working in the field of IT in different positions. Now I am the product lead Automation + AI for the transformation department of OGD ict-diensten. I’m responsible for the propositions regarding Power Platform, AI and Automation. Besides that I also consult a multitude of customers about these topics and their cloud platforms. Due to this broad range of topics I work with on a daily basis, I’ve developed a passion for connecting them all together. When I’m not working on improving specific systems I’m looking into how the systems can work together to create even more value. I also write on my blog https://www.autosysops.com about the solutions I find.

Since 2012 I’ve been working in the field of IT in different positions. Now I am the product lead Automation + AI for the transformation department of OGD ict-diensten. I’m responsible for the propositions regarding Power Platform, AI and Automation.... Show more

Daniel Oh

Daniel Oh

Java Champion, CNCF Ambassador & TAG DevEX Co-Chair, Microsoft MVP, Developer Advocate, Technical Marketing, Keynote Speaker, Published Author

Java Champion, CNCF Ambassador & TAG DevEX Co-Chair, Microsoft MVP, Developer Advocate, Technical Marketing, Keynote Speaker, Published Author Show more

Aditya Soni

Aditya Soni

Aditya Soni is a DevOps/SRE tech professional He worked with Product and Service based companies including Red Hat, Forrester Research, Searce, and is currently positioned at SailPoint as a Senior DevOps Engineer. He holds AWS, GCP, Azure, RedHat, and Kubernetes Certifications.He is a CNCF Ambassador, and AWS Community Builder for 4 years He leads AWS, CNCF, and HashiCorp user groups for Rajasthan State in India. He has spoken at many conferences, both in-person and virtually.

Aditya Soni is a DevOps/SRE tech professional He worked with Product and Service based companies including Red Hat, Forrester Research, Searce, and is currently positioned at SailPoint as a Senior DevOps Engineer. He holds AWS, GCP, Azure, RedHat, an... Show more

Kellyn Gorman

Kellyn Gorman

Kellyn Pot’Vin-Gorman is a Database and AI Advocate and Engineer with Redgate, with a long history in multi-platform technology. An Oracle ACE Director alumnus, she has been awarded over the years for her technical contributions and community volunteerism through many organizations, including a recognition as Woman in Tech of the Year for the state of Colorado. She is one of only six women part of the Oak Table, a network for the Oracle scientist. She has extensive experience in environment optimization, cloud migration, automation and architect of robust environments. Specializing in multi-terabyte management of OLAP/DSS systems. A consistent advocate for logical tuning of code and design before hardware solutions. She's recently become known for her expertise in DevOps, AWR, (Automatic Workload Repository) and virtualization of database environments with complex cloud management in Azure and Google Cloud. She's recently been contracted with a number of AI projects, using both relational data and AI services in both data security and architecture. The technical knowledge required to support these features offers great educational opportunities to learn by attending her technical presentations, engaging with her on social media presence as DBAKevlar or reading her blog, dbakevlar.com.

Kellyn Pot’Vin-Gorman is a Database and AI Advocate and Engineer with Redgate, with a long history in multi-platform technology. An Oracle ACE Director alumnus, she has been awarded over the years for her technical contributions and community volunte... Show more

Michael Eaton

Michael Eaton

Michael Eaton is a proven technical leader and developer with over three decades of experience focused almost exclusively on building solutions for the Microsoft ecosystem. He is a blogger and writes about leadership and technology.

Michael Eaton is a proven technical leader and developer with over three decades of experience focused almost exclusively on building solutions for the Microsoft ecosystem. He is a blogger and writes about leadership and technology. Show more

AL Rodriguez

AL Rodriguez

AL Rodriguez is a developer, cloud enthusiast, 3 kids in a trench coat, sometimes-blogger, and international speaker. With a background in software development, and a clear lack of self restraint, he specializes in using .NET for everything. An ASP.NET Core backend and a Blazor frontend? Check. IoT devices, Playwright UI Testing, CI/CD DevOps, or even Infrastructure as Code? Oh yeah, all C#! When he's not working, he's playing games, making stupid jokes, or arguing with code in a personal repo. You can read his latest rantings or catch up on videos at his site: ProgrammerAL.com

AL Rodriguez is a developer, cloud enthusiast, 3 kids in a trench coat, sometimes-blogger, and international speaker. With a background in software development, and a clear lack of self restraint, he specializes in using .NET for everything. An ASP.N... Show more

Ivan Pesenti

Ivan Pesenti

I'm Ivan Pesenti. A passionate gopher who has been working in the software industry since 2014.

I'm a software engineer focused on server-side programming. Throughout my career, I've always been accompanied by two obsessions: testing and writing secure code. I consider myself a detail-oriented person.

My career took a turning point in 2021 when the Go programming language crossed my path. Since then, I've fallen in love with it.

I believe in empathy, kindness, mutual help, growth, determination, and trust. These values have led me to give back to the community through speaking, coaching, writing, and more. Helping others is one of the most satisfying experiences I've ever had.

During my free time, I train my body, play football, watch anime, and hang out with family and friends.

One of my favorite quotes is: "Hard work beats talent."

I'm Ivan Pesenti. A passionate gopher who has been working in the software industry since 2014. I'm a software engineer focused on server-side programming. Throughout my career, I've always been accompanied by two obsessions: testing and writing s... Show more

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler

Kenny (Baas) Schwegler

I believe in collaborative software design where 'every voice shapes the software'. Leveraging a domain-driven design approach with Team Topologies, I facilitate clearer communication between stakeholders and software creators by collaborative modelling and deep democracy, decoding complexities, resolving conflicts and ensuring software remains agile to business demands.

As Software Architect Enabler at DHL eCommerce and independent trainer and facilitator specialising in technical leadership, software architecture, and sociotechnical system design, I work with organisations and teams to design sustainable and resilient software architecture. I also co-authored Collaborative Software Design: How to Facilitate Domain Modeling Decisions and organise the Virtual Domain-Driven Design community to share these ideas more widely.

I believe in collaborative software design where 'every voice shapes the software'. Leveraging a domain-driven design approach with Team Topologies, I facilitate clearer communication between stakeholders and software creators by collaborative modell... Show more

Ben Dechrai

Ben Dechrai

Ben Dechrai is a technologist with a strong focus on security and privacy, recognised as an MVP for his exceptional contributions to the community. Known for his ability to distil complex technical concepts into engaging, digestible portions, Ben empowers developers through a deep understanding of design principles, security considerations, and coding practices. With over two decades of experience in software engineering, security, and architecture, Ben is a published author and has consulted for companies and investors across numerous industries. He is deeply involved in the tech community, running technology conferences and workshops to share his expertise.

Ben Dechrai is a technologist with a strong focus on security and privacy, recognised as an MVP for his exceptional contributions to the community. Known for his ability to distil complex technical concepts into engaging, digestible portions, Ben emp... Show more

Roberth Strand

Roberth Strand

Roberth is a self-proclaimed "cloud automator" and "platform creator". He primarily works on building cloud native platforms, while being an advocate for Platform Engineering and DevOps. He has been awarded the title Microsoft Azure MVP and CNCF Ambassador, and previously HashiCorp Ambassador. As an active speaker for several years, he has been on stage everywhere from small local meetups to KubeCon.

Furthermore, he initiated Cloud Native Norway, which hosts events and supports the cloud native community in Norway. Additionally, he is active in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation as maintainer of the OpenGitOps project, previously a co-chair of TAG App Delivery, and founded and lead the Platforms Working Group for several years.

Roberth is a self-proclaimed "cloud automator" and "platform creator". He primarily works on building cloud native platforms, while being an advocate for Platform Engineering and DevOps. He has been awarded the title Microsoft Azure MVP and CNCF Amba... Show more

Sucheta Gawade

Sucheta Gawade

I'm a dual Microsoft MVP in the categories: Azure and Security. With more than eighteen years of experience in large-scale global IT environments, I specialize in Modern Endpoint Management, Enterprise Mobility and Security, and Microsoft Azure. I currently manage an endpoint engineering team in a Healthcare organization in the U.S.
I’m a global speaker, I hold 20+ technical certifications. Beyond engineering leadership, I’m a mentor and advocate for diversity and inclusion in technology; I won a Global Award for Leadership in 2025 from the WomenTech Network. I thrive by empowering fellow professionals through community-driven learning, purposeful guidance, and accessible technical education.

I'm a dual Microsoft MVP in the categories: Azure and Security. With more than eighteen years of experience in large-scale global IT environments, I specialize in Modern Endpoint Management, Enterprise Mobility and Security, and Microsoft Azure. I cu... Show more

Christoph Twiehaus

Christoph Twiehaus

Christoph's professional journey has been shaped by his experiences at a German insurance group, a mid-sized IT consulting firm specializing in Microsoft technologies, and Microsoft itself. His passion lies in digital transformation and its impact on individuals and businesses. For Christoph, the human aspect and their needs within the digital transformation space take precedence, along with the ever-evolving technological challenges.

He also enjoys challenging the status quo occasionally. There isn't a one-size-fits-all solution for every customer. Daily reevaluation is essential to achieve the best outcomes, recognizing that each customer and project is unique and cannot be replicated exactly.

Christoph's professional journey has been shaped by his experiences at a German insurance group, a mid-sized IT consulting firm specializing in Microsoft technologies, and Microsoft itself. His passion lies in digital transformation and its impact on... Show more

Marin Niehues

Marin Niehues

Marin Niehues is an independent consultant with a track record of over 20 client projects and two startups of his own. He works with VC-backed scaleups and DAX40 companies alike, advising on organizational design, operational performance, and management structures that actually scale.

In the past three years, Marin has been a featured speaker at conferences in more than ten countries across three continents - including repeated invitations from Google and Microsoft.

Marin Niehues is an independent consultant with a track record of over 20 client projects and two startups of his own. He works with VC-backed scaleups and DAX40 companies alike, advising on organizational design, operational performance, and managem... Show more

David Kjerrumgaard

David Kjerrumgaard

David Kjerrumgaard is a Developer Advocate at StreamNative and a committer on the Apache Pulsar project. He is recognized for his expertise in real-time data streaming, messaging systems, and big data technologies. As author of Pulsar in Action and co-author of Practical Hive, he has established himself as a leading voice in the streaming data ecosystem.

An accomplished international speaker, David presents at conferences worldwide on big data, streaming technologies, and agentic AI. His technical contributions extend beyond the stage—he actively contributes to Apache NiFi and maintains his committer status on Apache Pulsar, directly advancing these open-source platforms.

David's career includes leadership roles at industry-leading companies. He previously served as Principal Software Engineer on Splunk's messaging team, specializing in real-time data analytics. Before that, he held Director of Solutions positions at Streamlio and Hortonworks, where he implemented enterprise-scale solutions using Hadoop, Hive, and Kafka for Fortune 500 clients.

Through his technical expertise, thought leadership, and community engagement, David continues to shape the future of real-time data streaming.

David Kjerrumgaard is a Developer Advocate at StreamNative and a committer on the Apache Pulsar project. He is recognized for his expertise in real-time data streaming, messaging systems, and big data technologies. As author of Pulsar in Action and c... Show more

Just Blindbæk

Just Blindbæk

BI architect with extensive experience in all phases of BI development on Microsoft SQL Server, Azure, Fabric and Power BI. Founder and coordinator of Microsoft Business Intelligence Professionals Denmark (MsBIP.dk) and Power BI UG Denmark (PowerBI.dk). Is a Microsoft Certified Trainer.

BI architect with extensive experience in all phases of BI development on Microsoft SQL Server, Azure, Fabric and Power BI. Founder and coordinator of Microsoft Business Intelligence Professionals Denmark (MsBIP.dk) and Power BI UG Denmark (PowerBI.d... Show more

Abhilekh Verma

Abhilekh Verma

Abhilekh Verma is a founder, mentor and technical coach who has had a decade of experience in the IT industry working with Sales Teams and Corporate Training Roles. He was a corporate trainer at KPMG Gurugram and KPMG Hyderabad before jumping on the wagon of Entrepreneurship.
He is a mentor at Startupbootcamp, Wadhwani Foundation and runs Microsoft Azure Developer Community, ADP List, Omdena for Hyderabad. He is also a mentor at IIT Guwahati and Microsoft for Founders Hub. He is Microsoft MVP in AI.

Abhilekh Verma is a founder, mentor and technical coach who has had a decade of experience in the IT industry working with Sales Teams and Corporate Training Roles. He was a corporate trainer at KPMG Gurugram and KPMG Hyderabad before jumping on the ... Show more

Annie Talvasto

Annie Talvasto

Annie Talvasto is an award-winning international technology speaker and leader. She has spoken at over 100+ tech events worldwide, including KubeCon + CloudNativeCon and Microsoft Build & Ignite. She has been recognized with the CNCF Ambassador, Azure & AI Platform MVP awards. She has co-organized the Kubernetes & CNCF Finland meetup since 2017. In the past, she has also served as a track chair for KubeCon + CloudNativeCon, Program Chair for Secure AI Summit (powered by Cloud Native) and hosted Cloud Native Live, a weekly livestream by CNCF, for over 3 years.

Annie Talvasto is an award-winning international technology speaker and leader. She has spoken at over 100+ tech events worldwide, including KubeCon + CloudNativeCon and Microsoft Build & Ignite. She has been recognized with the CNCF Ambassador, Azur... Show more

Sami Laiho

Sami Laiho

Sami Laiho is one of the world's leading professionals in the Windows OS and Security. Sami has been working with and teaching OS troubleshooting, management, and security since 1995. Sami's session was evaluated as the best session in TechEd North America, Europe and Australia in 2014, and Nordic Infrastructure Conference in 2016, 2017, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023, 2024 and 2025 (Keynote for NIC).

At Ignite 2018 Sami's sessions were ranked as #1 and #2 out of 1708 sessions!! This was the first time in the history of the conference that anyone has been able to do this!

Sami is also an author at PluralSight and the conference chair for the TechMentor and "Cyber Security and Ransomware Live!" conferences.

More info at: https://samilaiho.com/

Sami Laiho is one of the world's leading professionals in the Windows OS and Security. Sami has been working with and teaching OS troubleshooting, management, and security since 1995. Sami's session was evaluated as the best session in TechEd North A... Show more

Henk Boelman

Henk Boelman

Henk is a Cloud Advocate specializing in Artificial intelligence and Azure with a background in application development. He is currently part of the AI cloud advocate team and based in the Netherlands. Before joining Microsoft, he was a Microsoft AI MVP and worked as a software developer and architect building lots of AI powered platforms on Azure.

Henk is a Cloud Advocate specializing in Artificial intelligence and Azure with a background in application development. He is currently part of the AI cloud advocate team and based in the Netherlands. Before joining Microsoft, he was a Microsoft AI ... Show more

Jan Ketil Skanke

Jan Ketil Skanke

Jan Ketil is an Microsoft MVP since 2016 and are working as a COO and Principal Cloud Architect at CloudWay in Norway. He has been working in the industry for Microsoft Partners and Microsoft for more than 25 years. He loves to speak about anything around Endpoint Management, Identity, Security and Automation. He is also the lead for both community conferences Workplace Ninjas Norway and Nordic Virtual Summit. Jan Ketil has presented at large industry conferences like Microsoft Ignite, Microsoft Inspire, MMS, TechMentor HQ, Experts Live Europe, WPNinja and NIC Conference in Oslo. He is also a regular speaker at various User Group events across Europe.

Jan Ketil is an Microsoft MVP since 2016 and are working as a COO and Principal Cloud Architect at CloudWay in Norway. He has been working in the industry for Microsoft Partners and Microsoft for more than 25 years. He loves to speak about anything a... Show more

Jeremy Laplaine

Jeremy Laplaine

Freelance Microsoft Fabric and Power BI consultant with 12+ years of experience, Microsoft MVP alumni, trainer and speaker. I help organizations deliver data projects by combining technical expertise, agile methods and AI. Convinced that AI is transforming our profession, I integrate Claude Code into my daily Fabric workflows — what I call AI-Augmented Delivery. Delivering fast, well… and with a smile.

Freelance Microsoft Fabric and Power BI consultant with 12+ years of experience, Microsoft MVP alumni, trainer and speaker. I help organizations deliver data projects by combining technical expertise, agile methods and AI. Convinced that AI is transf... Show more

Marco Parenzan

Marco Parenzan

I'm a passionate and customer-focused solutions architect with deep expertise in IoT, Cloud, .NET, and industrial applications. Microsoft has recognized my contributions with the MVP award since 2014 for Azure, and since 2024 specifically for Azure IoT.

With a background as an independent architect and developer, I’ve built a career around designing scalable, real-world solutions that bridge the gap between modern cloud technologies and industrial needs. I’m a frequent speaker at major tech community events across Italy, sharing knowledge on Azure, IoT, and .NET development.
As the community lead of 1NN0VA, a Microsoft-recognized tech community in Pordenone, Italy, I’m passionate about fostering innovation, mentoring developers, and supporting local tech growth. In 2016, I authored a book on Microsoft Azure to help others embrace the platform's potential.
At heart, I’m a missed researcher and a retro computing lover. I enjoy developing retrogames and playing with his Commodore 64, diving into sci-fi and comic books, and relaxing with a good streaming serie.

I'm a passionate and customer-focused solutions architect with deep expertise in IoT, Cloud, .NET, and industrial applications. Microsoft has recognized my contributions with the MVP award since 2014 for Azure, and since 2024 specifically for Azure I... Show more

Fabian Bader

Fabian Bader

Fabian Bader is a Cyber Security Architect and Microsoft MVP from Germany. He focuses on security and cloud solutions and works mainly with Microsoft technologies.
From Azure cloud to on-premises Active Directory, he likes to automate stuff with PowerShell.

Besides being a speaker at conferences and community events, he blogs at "cloudbrothers.info" and hosts "Purple Elbe Security User Group" and "Hamburg PowerShell User Group".

❤️ PowerShell and Security 🛡️

Fabian Bader is a Cyber Security Architect and Microsoft MVP from Germany. He focuses on security and cloud solutions and works mainly with Microsoft technologies. From Azure cloud to on-premises Active Directory, he likes to automate stuff with Pow... Show more

Andy Cutler

Andy Cutler

I am an Azure Data Platform professional working predominantly with Azure Synapse Analytics (SQL Pools), Data Factory, SQL Server and Power BI. I hold an MSc in Business Intelligence and Data Mining. I am a current Microsoft Data Platform MVP.

I am an Azure Data Platform professional working predominantly with Azure Synapse Analytics (SQL Pools), Data Factory, SQL Server and Power BI. I hold an MSc in Business Intelligence and Data Mining. I am a current Microsoft Data Platform MVP. Show more

Please note that Sessionize is not responsible for the accuracy or validity of the data provided by speakers.

Most Active Speakers 2024

Every year, we put together a list of the most active speakers. This list features the top 3% of speakers who have participated in events using Sessionize during the 2024.

The 3% is calculated from the pool of all speakers that have at least one accepted session in year 2024. We don't include inactive speakers or speakers that had no accepted sessions during the year. There are around 38,000 unique accepted speakers this year, the 3% is 1036. Not all of them have their speaker profiles set as public, and we respect that, so the list doesn't show all of them.

The calculation is based on the number of accepted events, that's the main criteria, but to get more refined results we also look at things like multiple sessions per event, sharing a session with a co-speaker and how big the event is. Number of submissions and declined sessions don't affect the list.

Please note that the count of events and sessions in this list does not represent the number of events and sessions from the year 2024. Instead, it shows the number of events and sessions featured on the speaker's public speaker profile; these numbers have nothing to do with the award itself.